Adelaide studied Applied Biology at Kingston University (and worked in the pharmaceutical industry before turning to art) and Clémence graduated with a Master’s in Arts and Culture Studies from the Sorbonne. I invited both of them for a combined interview. With Adelaide, I discuss female passivity/agency in visual culture, her British-Ghanaian identity, what she understands by decolonisation, her experience with endometriosis. With Clémence, I discuss the importance of women’s stories, #metoo and why men who feel lost, intimidated or frustrated in the process ought to just keep quiet for a bit, listen and understand.

Both talk about history, feminism, the need for multiple narratives, and the use of one’s body in art.

Adelaide and Clémence…

Thank you both for this opportunity! Congratulations for all that you are achieving! I have very quickly become a fan of your work and I invited the two of you for this together because I feel it is important for women to form sisterhoods, create a community and a space of empathy and support wherein they can discuss the things that mean the most to them openly. A good starting point is this—you both deal with women’s issues and are very bold and original. Your bodies are part of the work that you produce. What made you take this active, participatory approach? 

Adelaide: First, thank you for your kind words. My mentor, the filmmaker Simon Frederick started me thinking along these lines years ago. At a time when I was making figurative work in an attempt to tell stories of female empowerment and emancipation, he told me to put myself at the centre of the work in order to express myself authentically. At the time, I did not fully understand what he meant. Later, in 2015/16, my friend Rachel Ara, an artist whose work I admire, in an unofficial critique session of some of my figurative work said that she did not feel I was effectively expressing myself with the artistic techniques I was using. She felt that there must be some other way for me to authentically be me and say what I needed to say. This was difficult to hear at first, but it forced a much needed reevaluation of my practice at the time. So I started to research and experiment. This process led me to find a new, more authentic means of expression. One which allowed me to express what I feel is my true voice. Using my body feels natural, real and necessary.

Clémence: Thank you for your interest in our art practices and for this opportunity to answer a crossed interview! It is of course very important in our approach for both Adelaide and me to build and a supporting community of women in the arts. And I am so glad we can discuss it together here!

I’ve always created from lived experience. I draw inspiration from my own experience and from the experiences of the women I give voice to. So my works are largely participatory in their creative process. The performative work, for its part, is a very particular medium. It allows me to extend this participatory approach into engagement with the public.

I started to work on performance with my project ‘Sois Belle et Tais-Toi’, which denounces the injunction to beauty standards and invites women to express their singularities. The idea of working on this subject through performance came to me quite naturally because I wanted to create a strong intimacy between myself and the audience. My intention was to create a climate of mutual trust, sisterhood and support. During the performance I physically touch some people in the audience, they become the participants, we end up forming a group. It’s very powerful and each person comes out transformed from this artistic and human experience, myself included!

What are your views on the feminism (in the most general sense) and the way it has unfolded? In which areas of life should women assert “sameness” with men and in which areas “difference” from them? (For eg, I’ve been reading/hearing that the modern academic and professional worlds follow a timeline and structure that is built for the male body and mind. They essentially DO NOT take into account female needs—like menstruation and the biological clock—so if women just claim “equality” with men, it might not actually always be in their favour. I’m wondering what are your thoughts on this important issue…)

Adelaide: I think it is an interesting discussion. First, we have to think about all of the ways that feminist discourse intersects with race, class and sex and there are many. This is a complicated conversation, too complicated to get into properly here.

I think it is pretty obvious that for biological reasons men and women are not the same (please excuse the very binary nature of what I am saying). For example, I have endometriosis. A condition which only affects cis females because of our biology. It is not possible for this condition to affect a cis gendered male in the same way as it affects me (although in very rare instances men are affected but in very different ways). For this reason, were I to be in a traditional workplace, I would need my employer to make certain allowances for me in order for me to be able to do my job effectively.

Regarding the biological clock—this is a very real thing for cis gendered females. For example, my friend Wendy Elia—an amazing artist—was telling me that when she was studying art in the 80s, her professor told her entire class that it was a fact that some of them would go on to have successful careers (read the men) and that the women would more than likely go on to have children and, therefore, no career. Basically, you can either have a career or have children. You might not have a teacher today making such a bold statement, but this is still a reality for a lot of women. Cis men can have children at any age and cis women have a limited window in which to have children. As an artist, if you choose to have children, unless you have a very supportive partner or are very well off, life is going to be very tough and you may have to sacrifice your work for your children. It is not the same for most men. I know male artists who have children and they are able to travel the world making work on long residencies, while their partner or mother of their children is at home looking after the child/children. It is much more difficult and complicated for a multitude of reasons directly related to gender for women artists to do this. Yet many still do. I made a conscious decision not to have children because of this and a multitude of other complex reasons.

I think equality and “sameness” are two different things. Clearly, we are not the same. We can only have change if we understand each other’s differences and similarities. If we have understanding and empathy for each other. If we know what we have in common and what differences we need to be aware of so that we can make allowances for each other’s needs. For example, as a cis man, there may be something that you are doing that impacts my life in a negative way. But if we are insisting that we are the same, and I stay in victim mode and am silenced by patriarchal/capitalist norms, how will you ever know that you are hurting me? And that all that is required to ease my pain is for you to be aware and to understand? What I am fighting for as a feminist is to to raise up all women. To move away from any idea of victimhood. To empower all genders (and all sexes) to be in control of their present circumstances and their own future. This has to be done with education and empathy by all genders and sexes. Cis men have to play their part too.

Clémence: I think the essence of feminism lies in the idea that gender does not define the individual, and that every woman (like every man) is a singular being. And of course, the women’s stories have been erased from the history we’re taught. What I strive for through my art is the promotion of multiple, singular and unstable histories. I want to make visible, through the intervention of an artistic medium, the forgotten, truncated, erased stories of History. So to answer your question, I think we all need to assert “sameness” and “differences” with each others in every area of life. And we can do that by reclaiming our own narratives, sharing our singular stories. I understand that academia and some professional worlds feel compelled to put individuals into boxes, concepts, create labels…to satisfy their jobs. But I have a strong belief that the society we are building will be able to explore and adopt other practices.